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IRC Archive / Freenode / #windows / 2010 / July / 03 / 9
DaveWM
jrgill: what's wrong with actually using aero ?
nice
i never worked with audio or video in anything programming related tbh
Qb_Master
zbattle.net was cool, it's a simple program that organizes connections so people can play super nintendo games together using zsnes
jrgill
DaveWM: i dont care for the transparency. its not a matter of performance but just that i like my programs maximized and the clear bars bother me
DaveWM
cool
jrgill: you know you can disable transparency
jrgill
yeah, thats what ive been playing with. idk
Ether_Man
Qb_Master, they also have legal problems with trademark infringment.. They should really have chosen another name
DaveWM
jrgill: classic is more or less having themes disabled, so if you're expecting anything pretty out of it, you'll be disappointed
jrgill
DaveWM: that's what i like but with aero peek, etc
Qb_Master
lol
DaveWM
jrgill: you can have your cake, and i'll eat it too
jrgill
-.-
DaveWM
jrgill: just go to advanced system setting and appearance, with aero turned on, uncheck anything in the boxes there you're not interested in
jrgill
yeah, i think the shadows bother me. lets see here
DaveWM
i used to like things really plain too, especially when i was working on an old crappy ass computer, but now all my stuff supports win7 just fine, and the glassy sexy visuals have grown on me
i even made a little transparency addon for mirc, got this thing that makes cmd transparent, and used glasser with firefox
never thought i'd like the eye candy, but when the system handles it fine, it makes the whole experience more pleasant, if you're gonna be sitting there staring at it all for hours
Qb_Master
hah cool :)
jrgill
yeah, im not one of those stuck up i gotta run everything minimal guys. i was doing some nlite installs like tinyxp and all that but that was back when it made a difference
well aero offers desktop composition and takes the load of the cpu w/ gpu so im cool with that
DaveWM
jrgill: you'll probably find like myself, that win7 is made very well in the sense that most default things dont use that much of the resources
so it doesnt tweak as well as XP
jrgill
ya
DaveWM
i used to tweak the crap out of XP, i just have a small list of things i do with win7
jrgill
yeah, i used to go nuts w/ changing stuff on xp :P i have xp sp3 on my netbook here. brings back memories
but i think im over the whole tweaking the hell out of it stage
i set things up nice and then i get sick of it, so im trying to set something up long term here
DaveWM
yeah, well you could double or tripple your available resources by tweaking xp, on win7 you can tweak it to hell and back and maybe get a 10% difference, and have less to show for it
i just disable paging, security center, indexing, hibernation, and a few other services, remote stuff, backup
jrgill
yeah, disabling aero is like 100MB ram saved... wow
DaveWM
any automatic maintenance i can disable i do, i like to be proactive about that sort of thing
jrgill
indexing can be a bi**h, yeah
Ether_Man
DaveWM, you do realize that disabling paging is actually a bad thing I hope?
DaveWM
i don't know too many people that search the contents of their drive for a file
most people know about where stuff is at
Ether_Man: i don't see why if i have enough physical memory
Ether_Man
You have more ram than you have drivespace? Wow... Cant imagine what that must have cost.. What kindof mainboard do you have to handle that?
DaveWM
Ether_Man: where did i say that ?
FishFace
I disable it on my PC's I touch fwiw
DaveWM
and who uses 1tb of memory ?
Ether_Man
You just said you have enough physical... The only point at which disabling paging by having enough physical memory is by having more memory than storage..
DaveWM
Ether_Man: that's out of your mouth
i sure hate that i've been using so many broken pc's for years then...
without any issues
Ether_Man
I didnt say it was broken... I said it was a bad thing... Best case scenario is lower performance... Worst case is dataloss because of it
DaveWM
Ether_Man: how would it cause worse performance, if its using physical ram, over a portion of your hard disk as memory ?
jrgill
(Action) leaves the scene
DaveWM
my desktop has ddr3 1600 currently, i don't think my OCZ Vertex SSD can even compete with that
Ether_Man
Because it doesnt stop paging... But you will start paging all over the drive instead which increases load times due to it having to move the drive header longer
Also, by disabling paging, you effectively make superfetch useless, which again, lowers performance
DaveWM
superfetch still seems to work the same in every scenario i've tested it
although that's disabled on my desktop as well
Ether_Man
You cant use superfetch if you disable the pagefile because you wont have any ram free to superfetch in
g0pher
since NT4 - MS has recommended pagefile be 1.5X size of ram.
Ether_Man
DaveWM, http://lifehacker.com/5426041/understanding-the-windows-pagefile-and-why-you-shouldnt-disable-it
heftig
disabling superfetch is bad
g0pher
even though 2GB out of 4GB ram free - the pagefile is using 140MB
Ether_Man
That's bad too aye but atleast better than disabling the pagefile... Atleast disabling superfetch wont make you lose data
DaveWM
good read Ether_Man , i suppose i've been going more by feel for my personal needs, and i have yet to have any issues or notice any performance loss on the systems that i've disabled paging on
Ether_Man
If you ALWAYS disable it, you dont really have much of a referencepoint now do you? :)
DaveWM
mind you, the two systems i have it disabled on atm both have solid state drives, and plenty of ram, so i've disabled it, along with superfetch, and indexing
mota
why?
DaveWM
i didnt say i ALWAYS disable it
mota
what do you hope to *gain* from disabling it?
DaveWM
mota: well on those systems, i just wanted to reduce the IO to the disks
mota
ah, your feeling was, SSDS wear out, so move pagefile elsewhere?
Ether_Man
DaveWM, might I suggest actually just turning down your "swappiness"?
DaveWM
i find off my ocz vertex, applications start just as snappy without superfetch as they do on systems with an hdd and superfetch
mota
(or remove it)
Meccalicious
can i get an help
DaveWM
Ether_Man: lol
Meccalicious
i have a site which failed while i'm trying connecting to
can you tell me if it works to you
mota
Microsoft feel actually that pagefile is one of the *best* things to have on an SSD
DaveWM
Ether_Man: you've made some valid points Ether_Man, i'll keep them in mind from now on
mota: i can see the benefit, but i was working off the initial paranoia that people had about writing to an ssd too much
although i'm slowly growing away from that
mota
For the last word on pagefiles (short of buying a $50 copy of Windows Internals), this is a fascinating read: http://blogs.technet.com/b/markrussinovich/archive/2008/11/17/3155406.aspx
DaveWM
mota: also, like for instance, i have 8gb of ram on my newer desktop, so the pagefile managed by windows tends to be huge
and my ssd is only 60gb
so disabling paging on it and hibernation, clears up a huge chunk of space for me
mota
Vista forward, the aut-managed pagefile minimum is RAM + 300GB or 1GB, whichever is larger
MS's POV on pagefile and SSD: http://blogs.msdn.com/b/e7/archive/2009/05/05/support-and-q-a-for-solid-state-drives-and.aspx
DaveWM
well, as i said, i can understand the benefit there, if i was paging, it does seem like a better option to page off of a faster device
mota
hibernation and pagefile - I'm actually starting to wonder why MS don't combine these
DaveWM
especially with the initialization being like nothing on an ssd
i dunno
Ether_Man
hmm.. Cant find it now but there is actually a regkey that tells windows to never swap anything to disk unless it actually needs to... Though IMO it's still better to allow windows to handle the paging.. Windows is in alot better position than you are to determine what will be faster :)
mota
Well, the truth is, you'll always page, no matter what you do with pagefile. You just won't page to the pagefile.
DaveWM
i alwasy wondered exactly what was stored in hibernation file, and how
i was worried about the extra IO from it being written too
but like i said, i'm trying to ease my mind on that a little, seems silly to have an SSD if i'm gonna be paranoid about writing to it
lol
mota
Ether_Man: I suspect that registry hack is quite old, and probably one of the misunderstood ones like disable_paging_executive
Qb_Master
brb reboot
DaveWM
Ether_Man: I'll keep that in mind, but like i said, i don't do it on every system i have
mota
(actually that probably doesn't have the underscores in it)
Ether_Man
mota, perhaps.. Though I found it when I was still playing WoW and windows always decided to swap out unused models from the game.. Even while the game was still in use and the model was very likely to be used very soon again... Though yes I had a small amount of ram then but Id rather have everything else take longer so I decided to use that
DaveWM
what does driver core paging refer to ?
mota
DaveWM: end of the day it's up to you. Just keep in mind, there is a lot of apocryphal BS out there about the paging file. It is poorly understood by those who write tweak guides.
Windows doesn't know how likely any chunk of memory is to be used again. It knows how often it has been used in the relatively recent past
DaveWM
mota: yeah, i get hear you guys, and thanks for not just spouting BS opinions to convince me otherwise
heh
mota
It pages preemptively (eg not everything written to pagefile has been 'paged out' of RAM).
DaveWM
some of you guys are good at providing evidence
yeah, actually the link that Ether_Man gave me a while ago has some stuff in it that makes sense
mota
Also it has no need to write things that it got straight from disk to pagefile.
DaveWM
some of my logic does apply, but i can see some things i wasnt aware of
g0pher
Meccalicious: url u having trouble ?
DaveWM
i didnt think superfetch and paging had anything to do with eachother
Ether_Man
They have very much to do with eachother :) The more you can swap out from ram, the more is available for use by superfetch :)
To put it simply atleast.. It's a bit more complicated than that but
DaveWM
well, my point would have been that I have plenty of available physical ram to work with
heh
Ether_Man
Free ram is wasted ram though :)
mota
uh, superfetch is primarily a new paqging algorithm. You are talking about one thing as if it is two things
DaveWM
Ether_Man: well, i'm using more of it with paging disabled i suppose
so i'm wasting less
mota
DaveWM: you cannot disable paging. You can only disable pagefile. There is a difference.
Ether_Man
mota, when people talk of superfetch, people refer to the part of superfetch that is the caching part and not the paging part even though they are more interconnected than that
mota
Ether_Man: I won't use definitions from people who 'talk about paging' and do not understand it.
Ether_Man
Hence why I said that it is abit more complicated than simply saying the more you have free the more is available for use.
DaveWM
i may try to enable paging on my ssd for a while see how it works out
mota
superfetch is just a set of extensions to the paging algorithm.
Ether_Man
daveWM, XP or 7?
DaveWM
win7
Ether_Man
Then it's even SSD aware and will use appropriate settings by default for SSD use :)
DaveWM
yeah
Qb_Master
kback
mota
(and really, paging *is* caching)
DaveWM
mota: i guess that would be a better term wouldnt it
blacktr
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uol0oj-TtM&feature=related
HAHAHAH
omg the look on titos face
mota
Let me get you one other link, which deliberately presents things backwards to help in understanding the concepts
blacktr
wops
wrong chan
mota
http://blogs.msdn.com/ericlippert/archive/2009/06/08/out-of-memory-does-not-refer-to-physical-memory.aspx
Lippert basically describes RAM as a fast cache because disks are slow.
And there is some sense to this mental model.
Xenofon
basically, for RAM all you need to think about is "do I have enough for the apps I run" and "do I have an OS that takes advantage of it"
the rest of the stuff about how much ought to be paged and how much superfetch and stuff like that is nonsense
windows 7 already has smart mechanisms for knowing that
mota
That you find it personally nonsensical, doesn't make it nonsense. It is interesting stuff, for some folks.
Xenofon
nonsense from the perspective of trying to optimize your memory usage beyond what windows already does
blacktr
anybody here actually use a thumb stick for more ram ?
using that new doo hickey for win7
Xenofon
obviously not nonsense from a design perspective, someone had to figure it out in the first place
DaveWM
Ether_Man: that guy from that one page said he got some of his info from this page, its got some pretty technical details on it http://blogs.technet.com/b/markrussinovich/archive/2008/11/17/3155406.aspx
blacktr
technet owns
mota
But your basic advice is right - let the OS handle it unless you have *good* reasons to do otherwise, and those reasons are supported by authortative facts (by which I mean, the advice on page 3 of a thread in some kiddy tweaking forum, does not count).
blacktr
anybody here use sysinternals suite ?
Xenofon
russinovich owns
he writes very well
DaveWM
pretty interesting, i'm gonna have to read up a little more on it all later, thanks mota good link
blacktr
ye he owns
the technet guys are awesome
http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/sysinternals/default.aspx
i use aton of the sysinternals tools
g0pher
blacktr: u mean ReadyBoost ?
blacktr
yes ready boot
boost *
is it good ?
DaveWM
Ether_Man , mota , i guess what i'd like to see is some benchmarks in different scenarios with and without paging - i'll probably dig some up later
g0pher
don't know - wanted to get a 16GB SDHC to try it - says it will allocate 3x ram size for it
mota
Right, Mark Russinovich is now an MS Fellow (which means they pay him to do whatever the hell he wants, because they know it's good for the OS). They bought his company - for years he would regularly go to the MS campus and teach Windows devs how Windows works!
DaveWM
lol
blacktr
ye he works for the man now
amigojapan
steve ballmer is great, I love how he gets super hyper
g0pher
good explain here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ReadyBoost
mota
ReadyBoost has little to do with paging
it's a different sort of cache altogether
blacktr
http://www.microsoft.com/emea/spotlight/sessionh.aspx?videoid=359
Advanced Malware Cleaning
with mark
amazing stuff
using the sysinterals suite
autoruns and process explorer
DaveWM
cool
blacktr
i thought i was good at malware cleaning but this shows you some amazing tricks
mota
Right, good video. That's the other thing that amazes me about the guy. Given the depth and specificity of his knowledge, it's kinda awesome that as a presenter he's such a regular guy.
DaveWM
i used to take care of malware cleaning manually sometimes back on xp, but seems like in more recent years i just let malware removal tools handle it for me
g0pher
isnt win defender and avg enough ?
blacktr
oh no
absolutely not
DaveWM
but still good stuff to know, i know some things out there are stubborn
blacktr
watch this video
and you will be blown away
i was
its advanced malware cleaning its not using anti virus software or any automated tools
its manual
which is a must if you are going after malware that is very sophisticated
cellofellow
anyone here know a thing or two about internet explorer? I have a page that uses @font-face, and it shows the custom font for a second or two, then it switches to what looks like Arial.
g0pher
and win update downloads win ?? once a month to check for bad
cellofellow
http://pcninjas.co.cc/ if you want to take a look.
DaveWM
blacktr: i was thinking this guy was gonna have a strong accent and not be a very good speaker, but he's not too bad
heh
i guess the name sounded like somebodys name with a strong accent